Thomas LaBaugh, Ph.D. Outplacement Consultant

Bowen:     Tom, what sorts of trends are you seeing in the American workplace today, specifically, with respect to out-placement and job changing activities, is it increasing, staying the same?

LaBaugh:     I think there's a large variety of responses to particularly out-placement people that are losing their jobs looking for new opportunities. A lot of people are looking to get into businesses of their own so they don't have to go through the anxiety and the stress of losing a job again. And a lot of them have a great fear and high level of anxiety of finding something new, particularly people as they get into their mid to late 40s and early 50s. And what I've found is that there is a real treasure trove out there of talent, of people that can do terrific work and are willing to work for a little less than what they've earned in the past for the opportunity to have a little less stress and could make a great contribution yet employers are not even considering these people because they're using the term "over-qualified." And they've got two basic responses to that or definitions, I should say. One is you're over-qualified because you want too much money and, second, you're over-qualified because you'll get bored on this little job that we have for you. But I can tell you, of all the people that I've worked with, they'd be delighted to take a little less money because they don't need as much and, second, they'd like a little less stress. So there are a lot of real good contributors out there that are getting overlooked.

Bowen:     As far as organizations are concerned, do you find management using out-placement services more than they have before and, if so, why is that?

LaBaugh:     Yeah, I think they are. But I think there's a concern for a number of elements. One is the welfare of the individual; they really want to try to be helpful. And we call it doing the right thing; a lot of them do want to do that. The other thing is that there's some concern about litigation. And when you present someone that you're separating with a package of goodies, including not only severance pay but also out-placement services or career counseling, it makes the package a little more attractive. And that person, then taking that package, usually will sign some kind of a statement indicating that they will not sue the company. So that combination, making it more attractive and getting them to sign, helps relieve their burden - that is, the burden of the corporation.

Bowen:      So in one sense, it's a protective measure and, in another sense, it's good business from a care and feeding of the human resources, is that what you're saying?

LaBaugh:      I think both of those are true and many times they are magnanimous. There are a few companies I've worked with that are really concerned about the individual. But as I find out over time, the companies have less and less interest about the person, in terms of their separation and how they're doing, particularly the longer they're out. So there's an initial, real intense concern but, and I think it's only natural, that it kind of wanes over time.

Bowen:      But the concerns over litigation, it sounds like, probably outweigh the care and concerns of the individual?

LaBaugh:      I think it depends on the individual corporation. And I've seen a number of corporations that decided not to offer anything. They just want to take the risk. They decided that the person can go on their own and try to find their own way. And it's a very harsh environment that they've set this person into because it's a tough thing to go through on your own, particularly professional people that haven't looked for work for 25 or 30 years. And the market has changed. And they don't know how to write a resume. They don't know what things to say in an interview. They don't know how to answer questions. They don't know whether they should negotiate or not. A lot of times they'll leave money on the table. And that's our job, is to help support that and train them. But the realities are they really do need the help.

Bowen:      What sorts of jobs or organizational levels, ultimately people, are being affected by these changes in the workplace?

LaBaugh:       I'm finding it at all levels. And when I say all levels, I'm starting at about $20,000 - $25,000 all the way up to, I think the highest one we've ever had is $240,000. The $20,000 - $25,000 professional person normally would be an administrative type of person and they're looking to get back into that kind of work and there's a little more opportunity for somebody at that level than there is, say, at $200,000 and on up. Once you get over around $70,000 - $80,000, in terms of salary, the job market gets a little bit tighter and it's a little tougher sale, particularly when you combine high income with years of experience. You get a little bit expensive and you get a little old. And so some companies won't look at those people.

Bowen:      When people come to you from an organization where they've been out-placed, what typically is their mood? What are their feelings like?

LaBaugh:      Some of them are in great despair. Some of them are depressed. There's a high level of anxiety, great deal of fear, high stress and they're really worried about the overall future of not only their livelihood and their jobs but also family. And it doesn't matter whether the person's male or female. And if they are single, they're worried about their own welfare, of course. But it's a very, very devastating experience. And most, all of our counselors, myself included, have been through this so we can emphasize with them. And we do everything that's possible to support them, give them the counseling they need, give them the direction they need and move them along through the process. Normally if we catch them quickly, we can turn that around and get them looking forward, get them moving into something new. But, by and large, if they're left to their own devices, they'll slip pretty low. And it takes a long time to get out of that malaise that ultimately develops from depression. Once they get depressed, then they get locked up and it's very difficult for them to get going, pick up the phone, call people, do networking, respond to ads. They're just in a depressed state. And some of them, I've had one that really literally had to get psychiatric help.

Bowen:     The longer people are out of work, does that mood change?

LaBaugh:      It can get worse. Our job involves a great deal of is trying to encourage them, if they've been out for quite a long time. If they get some hits and they're active, they're going to do all right. And what we tell them is, "You need to develop hope." And that's our real goal. When you've got some things going, you're on the phone, having some appointments, you've got a couple of job interviews lined up and some networking meetings, you'll feel good about yourself. But if you just sit there and worry about picking up the phone and responding to ads and keep waiting for somebody to call, it's going to be a long wait. And it's going to be a lonely wait. And it's going to be a depressing wait.

Bowen:      Tom, what are the steps that you employ in dealing with somebody who is very angry?

LaBaugh:      One of the very first things we do is we allow them to vent a lot of that anger. Now, that sounds like a simple task but what it does is alleviates what we might call the post-office syndrome so that somebody doesn't go off the deep end and do something dramatic. And that's a service that we provide to employers. We are onsite many times when somebody gets the word. And someone, in fact, and we train employers on how to do it. There's a proper method in how to separate someone. Usually when the separation takes place then they bring them down to us. We're in another room. And we have a few opening statements with them. And then we let them start talking about the situation. And I've had that go on for as long as two and three hours. And they're real upset, they're real angry. They tell us about all of the ugly things that are going on at that organization. And they're really devastated. And, of course, anger's a piece of that. We then will give them information, once they're, we call it, stabilized a little bit. We give them information on what to tell the spouse, if there is a spouse involved; what to tell the children, if there are children involved; how you should deal with your friends and neighbors; what you should do with your network. You're going to have people calling you to sympathize with you, what should you do with those people. And once they've got some good direction, they can go home and handle usually the evening. And usually it happens midday, early day. We recommend doing it late in the day, early in the week so that the person has a little bit of time to think about it during the work week. And they don't have to face all their fellow employees having.. I've done it, had people do it at one o'clock and then they have to go back and see their colleagues at three. And it's a nightmare, it's a bad mistake. But normally then once they leave the building, we call them that evening to find out how they're doing, see if they have problems; see if they would like us to talk with the spouse, if there is a spouse; and then we try to get them into the office the next day, if possible. Sometimes they'll want to take the weekend or two or three days. And we get them in and they think they're going to get started on the program right away. Well we sit down and we'll say, "Well how's it going?" And then they roll on for another couple of hours on, "Isn't it awful?" And that's part of the process is to get a lot of that anger and a lot of that venting out. And then as we go along, another part of the rebuild is we have a huge document that they will complete on their history, their work history. And what that does is two things. One, we use it to direct their resume but, secondly, they write down what they have done and what they have accomplished. And that gives them a sense of self-worth. I've had dozens of them come back and say, "Boy, that's a great thing. I'm really glad I did that because now I've, I'm not a bad person. I have done some good things and I will work again. I'm going to do more good things." So that helps build them up. And then as we work along through the process, if I see them continuing to be angry after a given length of time, usually a few weeks, then we just have to confront it. And say, "You're still showing a lot of bitterness and here's what I'm seeing. And what do you think you ought to do about it. And would you hire somebody like you?"


Bowen:      What typically is the impact on family members, for those who do have family?

LaBaugh:       Everybody gets very anxious. I've seen some very, very stressful situations that can start driving a wedge between the person who's lost their job and the rest of the family - particularly the major, the spouse relationships. But if we can get everybody to be supportive and get behind them, the person will do a lot better and get back on their feet The realities are that people who want a job can find a job. But a lot of times they're so devastated by this that they can't put the pieces back together and get back into the marketplace. And that's one thing I think employers overlook when they do this - particularly if they do it glibly and particularly if they do it without offering any support services. It's so painful. And sometimes people don't recover for such a long time and sometimes they may never recover. That, it's a real disservice to society in general.

Bowen:        How do people regard work after a period of time? When somebody has been let go from an organization, what kinds of thoughts, what kinds of changes in their value system, if any, may occur?

LaBaugh:        What I see happening, and I get a lot of pretty high-powered executives, when we do the values assessment, items like money, power, title, they all drop to the bottom. And things like family, caring, contribution to society, all of those things seem to rise. And there's a real change that takes place. And many people that I get are literally burned out. They've never had any time off. And we work so hard, I think, in this country - it's 60 to 70 hours a week for 25 or 30 years - that people are very, very weary. And when they have a few minutes, especially when they have some severance pay, and they have the opportunity to sit down, take stock of their life and their lifestyle, they would most often like to lighten up. And people that I see that get six months, I've had some that get a full year, of severance, I've seen some come in cheering, saying, "This is going to be great! I can't wait to take some time off." And they'll sit for three or four months and then the reality sets in that they have to get a job and get going. But they're delighted to have some of the time off. And then often they will look for something that's a little more magnanimous and a little more in the serving area than they had in the past, which was pretty hard-driving, pretty high-income generation.

Bowen:      So it sounds like this is an opportunity, as painful as it might be, for people to take time out and reflect on what's really important to them in their life?

LaBaugh:      Yes. And that's basically where we start with them. We do what we call stabilizing them. And we talk to them for a good length of time as to where they are, what they've done, where they're headed. And we also look for problems that they may have had in the workplace. And once we get a good feel for that, we can start rebuilding on that base. And we get them to pretty well and pretty thoroughly look at where they've been and what they've done so they can maintain some dignity and self-worth. Because most of them have achieved quite a bit. And based on that they're able to have their ego rebuilt and then start heading forward.

Bowen:        Do you ever have people who are permanently angry coming away from a situation like this?

LaBaugh:        Yes. Yes, I've had a few. It looks pretty ugly and it looks pretty dark for them and their future. The few that I have had have really lost other future opportunities. And I've sat with them. I've talked with them. We've discussed what to do and how not to do some things, what things to say. And they just do not listen to everything that's said. And when they get into that interview situation, they think they should just tell it the way it is. And often if you tell it the way it is and you're still bitter and angry, you're going to lose the opportunity. And I've had some that have had that happen. And they're out for a long, long time.

Bowen:        So if the bitterness and the anger shows, it's highly probable that they will not get hired, is what you're saying?

LaBaugh:     Yes, right. People do not want to hire angry people and these people are angry when they leave.

Bowen:      om, literally millions of people have lost jobs over the last ten years, if we just look at that period. And with announcements appearing every day from companies like Raytheon, AT&T, Xerox, J. C. Penney, Otis Elevator, on and on, how likely is this trend to continue and do you see it abating at any point in time?

LaBaugh:      I really don't. And we started our business back in 1994. I'd worked in out-placement prior to that, starting back in 1991. And in 1991 working with another company, they indicated that this was probably going to dry up pretty quickly. And we've got to get into other product lines, sell change management, sell team building, sell time management, a lot of support activities, because people are going to quit with the downsizing very quickly. We've found that not to be the case. It's going on and on and I think it's going to continue. People are looking for more ways to make profit and cutting bodies is one way to do that. Fortunately, the economy is strong enough that it's picking up a lot of these people. But there are a few that get lost in the cracks. And there are a few that just walk away from work.

Bowen:     What do they do?

LaBaugh:      Some of them just literally retire. Some of them will go to work for something like SCORE where there's no real, they're a senior person so there's no real income, but they're able to make a contribution. They might work in a voluntary manner or they might focus a little bit more on a hobby and maybe look for a small business to run. But if they are financially in decent shape, they're ready to often get out.

Bowen:     What advice to those in the workforce today who potentially face the threat of layoff?

LaBaugh:     Update your resume. I think that's always good advice. And I guess it depends on where the threat is coming. If it's coming from a downsizing, there's not a lot that you can do other than start building and maintaining your network, that is, the people that you know. Trying to, when you go to parties, meet other people, get business cards, get familiar with a lot of other folks. If it's a behavioral issue between you and the boss and you look like you're losing, I would recommend giving up and smooching up.

LaBaugh:     I know when I grew up my father gave us the philosophy that you don't kiss up to anybody. You don't brown nose, was the term. You don't schmooze with the boss. You just, you keep your distance and you work real hard, and then you also tell them what you think. And he might have been right but that doesn't work today. And what I would recommend is I would lay down all my arms, I'd get some chapstick and I would just just be as sweet as I possibly could to the people I'm working with.

Bowen:      It almost sounds as if people in the workforce today are politicians, in the sense of constantly having to garner votes and be a popular figure?

LaBaugh:      That it exactly right. People, managers, supervisors want people who are going to be supportive of them. They don't want people that are going to be adversaries. And a lot of us have that philosophy that adversarial relationships are good but that doesn't hold a lot of water today, especially with the movement toward teams and team building.

Bowen:     So if you're at all competitive or you have a contrary attitude, best express it in very positive ways, is that what you're saying?

LaBaugh:       Absolutely. Use the ABC method, we call it. A is for acknowledge, which means you recognize their idea and say that's a good idea. And then B, use a little bit of a bridge, look for a way to move to the next item. And then C, we call continue, so you continue then with your idea. So the idea is to be a little bit tactful there. So you're saying, "Well I think that's really quite a good idea." Then the B for bridge is, "There is another philosophy that may work here and I'd like to really present that." And then C, you continue. What most of us want to do is start with C and just blast somebody with our idea, particularly the boss. And that's just not very tactful. And that can be painful, in the long run, for your career.

Bowen:      Tom, I know you do a lot of work in the area of teamwork. And when you go into organizations and sort of take the pulse of the organization, what do you find that connects with our topic of anger in the workplace?

LaBaugh:     I find a lot of cliques. I find a lot of dissension. I find a lot of communication problems and those are mainly the result of behavioral problems, that is, interpersonal problems, where people, for one reason or another, do not know how to behave. And they're behaving in what we would term a bad manner. They might be gruff or they might be too direct or they might be too harsh. And the realities are they're unaware of it. But nonetheless, it's painful for everyone around them and shuts down the communication. Every time I do a team building activity, and I've done an awful lot of them, I'll ask the whole group, what's the most difficult thing about management? And they'll all say communication. That's the number one thing that comes up. And the main reason is that people don't know how to interact. They don't know how to behave. They don't trust one another. It's just absolutely amazing the lack of trust. And so they're not going to be supportive. And instead of working together as a team using the Deming concepts that were developed in this country starting in 1980, rather than using those concepts, they use the old management style of plan, organize, staff, direct and control. And so you've got a management philosophy that's saying, "We're going to direct you. We're going to control you." And you've got today's corporate environment in many places that want to be team. And you've got a real conflict there. So people are trying to direct other people and it's just not working. And people would rather work together in a team.