Mary Howes, Volunteer leader of a church sponsored support program for both un- and under-employed persons

Bowen:     Tell us about the group. What prompted the organization to come into existence?

Howes:    Many people in our parish had experienced job change, so we decided to create a networking and support group that was open to church members and the community. And, now we've served about 400 people in the five years of operation.

Bowen:     So in the five years of your program, you've seen all 400 people?

Howes:    Absolutely.

Bowen:     Are these people in transition?

Howes:    Yes. The most common is downsized. Other than that, people can be underemployed or just dissatisfied with their job.

Bowen:     What is the age range of the group?

Howes:    The lion's share of our people are between 45 and 55. And, of course, since most of them are from downsizing that kind of tells us what kind of people are getting downsized.

Bowen:     What kinds of feelings and emotions do you see in the program?

Howes:    The one I see always at first is anger. It can be at the same time, as depression. The anger, I understand. Sometimes it's well placed anger. They have worked for a firm for perhaps 20 years. They had a covenant with that corporation. That covenant was you work well, you improve yourself and you will have a job as long as you want. Not only has that covenant been broken here in Louisville, it's been broken all over the country. So the anger is not only at their past employer, but there is distrust of their future employer. In addition to anger, we see depression. A lot of good people feel they have failed. They were downsized. They were given promotions, they were given raises, but they're out of a job. What did they see in me that they had to let me go And the last thing I've seen is the greed that's in corporations.

Bowen:     Say more about that.

Howes:    Let's say it's me, I've been downsized. I'm over 40 years old and I've worked for the company for 20 years (that wasn't my case). I had continual promotions, wonderful reviews, I was always above average and an excellent employee. And now, I'm over 40, say 45, and I'm a manager of a large department and I'm gone. One day, someone walks in and escorts me out of the building. It's very common the way that happens. So that person thinks beyond the self-doubt and beyond the depression, he says, "You know, besides myself, there were a lot of other people my age who were let go. And I know for a fact that their benefit package was something like mine, that their salary was something like mine. Why is it that we were laid off?" It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that it's our age which costs more for insurance admittedly. It's my salary. My corporation has to put out fires to improve the bottom line. They might be wanting to improve the bottom line because the company's on the block. It might be for sale. You can't sell a company with a lot of fat. So you cut down to a skeleton crew to make yourself very saleable. And I think another thing that's become very clear, we've all seen it on the news, that a lot of CEOs are getting bonuses the more people they cut. So, it's kind of like the vultures feeding on the carrion of the unemployed.

Bowen:     So in essence, the leadership is being rewarded for downsizing. But, looking at the other side, isn't the leadership responsible for improving the profitability of the organization?

Howes:    My background is an accountant, so when I look at a balance sheet and a profit and loss statement, I notice there are two parts to that statement. The top part is profit, that's your sales and your costs of goods sold and you come up with your net profit before expenses and taxes. Below that, of course, the lion's share of your expenses are your product costs and your wage costs. So it doesn't take someone who's very intelligent that I could, tomorrow, cut those 100 employees and look at the savings. Look at our bottom line for that quarter.

Bowen:     Why are people angry

Howes:    Basically they are anger because the covenant has been broken. The covenant hasn't just been broken on a one-time basis. Companies are using this as a consistently as method to reduce costs when they need to. The unfortunate thing is, these aren't just numbers on a profit and loss statement. These are people. These are families. These are children who, when they're just at the age that they're going to school, they're father doesn't have the money to send them.

Bowen:     Well you mentioned family. What sort of impact does this have on family
members?

Howes:     The immediate is the panic of the wife if the husband has been laid off.

Bowen:      Or vice versa.

Howes:     I've seen it both. You can't cover your basic needs like a mortgage or a car payment. Those can't be covered.

Bowen:     You indicated the group is opened to people outside the church community and you indicated that family members are also involved. Do you have family members going through the program.

Howes:    Sure, we've had family nights where we suggest the spouse come along. And the spouse hears what the people in the group are going through and walks away with a great deal of understanding. I've people walk up to me and say, "I had no idea this was going on, that he was going through this."

Bowen:     What about children? Sons? Daughters?

Howes:    Not too often but we had children, too. Usually they bring children that are teenagers but that's common for there to be teenagers with the ages of people that are downsized.

Bowen:     What kind of reaction or emotion do younger people have.

Howes:    Well, it varies but there's a lot of anger. It's understandable why the kids are angry. Let's say it's a daughter who's 16 and dad promised her a car. No car.

Bowen:     So angry for self interest.

Howes:    Self interest. Angry that the system has done this to their parent. Angry at the parent for not providing for them. I've seen divorces over this too. It's also interesting to look at the older child, the one who is perhaps in their 20s, already established a career and looks back and sees Workshops & Events to mom or dad and they're not stupid. They learn from this. They learn very valuable lesson.

Bowen:     What do they learn.

Howes:    They learn that it really doesn't pay to give your loyalty to a corporation. Why? You work there for 20 years and then you get laid off. That's your reward. So what they see, and rightly so, is that they should have their affiliation only to their career.

Bowen:     But, Mary, let me ask you this. Lay-offs are nothing new.  They've been around for many years. Is there anything different this time around.

Howes:    It's a bit more insidious because layoffs were usually for a reason. The profits at Ford go down. Perhaps the demand for their trucks and cars is down. They produce less trucks and cars. There is a decided reason for the lay-off. When business picks up, those people are rehired. People do not get rehired when they are downsized.

Bowen:     Is that always the case because my sense is that in some organizations, cuts are made and for reasons of planning or a business crunch or whatever, I've actually seen some of these people come back, on a temporary basis at least.

Howes:    You see them come back as contract people. You also see people come back as permanent employees. This has happened to several people in the group, they go back to the corporation but they do not go back at the same salary.

Bowen:    What about their attitude? What's their mindset?

Howes:    It depends on how long they've been out of work. The ones that have been out over a year, sometimes they're just grateful to have any employment at all.

Bowen:     In terms of the young people in the families that are effected, what impact do you think Dad's or Mom's job loss has on their outlook.

Howes:    They become very, very selfish. But I can't blame. Let's imagine we were 25 and we just saw our father get laid off at, say 47 years old. The father had been putting a good amount of money into his 401K. He is probably relegated to a job that will be 50 to 60-percent of what he just left which of course very adversely affects his Social Security as well as what he puts into his 401K. So now the son says, "He's basically making what I am now. So I've got to make mine by the time I'm 40 or 45 and I've got to have a lot of mine in there because there's another twist to this." He doesn't think Social Security is going to be there for him. So he has to be ruthless. He has to pile up as much money in an IRA, a 401K or outside investments as he can, otherwise he could be Dad in 22 years.

Bowen:     Mary, what gives you the perspective to work with people in this program.

Howes:    The same thing happened to me. I was with a large health care insurer in the Louisville area. In July of '89, 63 of us were laid off that day. And, of course, since it got into the press, they made sure they laid-off a few each week after that. But my whole department was wiped out.

Bowen:     What were your feelings?

Howes:    Well, I wasn't too satisfied with the corporation I was working for. I didn't feel quite as angry as some of my compatriots. There's one lady that was laid off the same day I was. I had five years in but she had had 32. They lost friends. These people more or less grew up together. Imagine if you'd been somewhere 32 years. Most of your friends were where you worked. So, now you've not only lost a job, you've lost an adopted family. Because when these people are laid off, very few people call and support them from that old organization.

Bowen:     How do people get terminated?"

Howes:    Well, very often someone will walk up to them and say their job has been eliminated and please get your coat, we'll help you to the door. They're more then welcome to come back on a Saturday or Sunday to collect personal belongings but their employment ends right now. The downsizing fervor began in the 80s and hasn't stopped. At first it was very humane. For myself, for every year I was with this insurer, I received one month's severance for every year I was there. In today's standards, that's extremely generous. Now, I've heard, to get around the severance issue, that same insurer is just firing people so there won't be severance package. So it's gotten more lethal.

Bowen:     Is there any end in sight?

Howes:    I'm hoping corporations will see that there has to be an end in sight. In order for a person to be truly productive, to be truly creative, they have to be able to give their all to that eight hours that they're there (and we all know that professional people are there a lot longer than eight, but paid for eight). In order to be there and committed, there has to be some measure of trust. And the only way trust can be created is for the downsizing to stop.

Bowen:     For the people who are in the transition program, what advice to give them.

Howes:    Well, surprisingly enough people need help with some basics: interview skills, resume preparation. I'm surprised because you usually don't think of professional people as needing that. A lot of people don't truly know what networking is. You don't walk up to a person and say, "Do you have a job for me." That you get a name and you ask that person for 20 to 30-minutes of their time and you have an end in sight. The end might be, do I fit in to this industry, or I'm think of changing careers and I'm interested in getting into this part of this industry and the contact is someone in that part of the industry. Of course, you're going there with valid questions and the person might look at you and think of you as a possible employee. That's, of course, what you want. But then in addition before you walk out you ask for two to three names of people that that person thinks might give you additional advice. That is the way you secure the best jobs because that person might say, "You know, I know of XYZ Corporation that needs a good executive, or operations manager, or accountant, or whatever you are." They know how the world revolves. They know what they're there for, they know what you're there for and they're willing to help. People do want to help.

Bowen:     Mary, How do you deal with the emotions of people coming through the program? Is there a any specific process or support that people get.

Howes:    One of the best things that we do is listen. They don't want to be told what to do. They haven't been able to tell their employer what they think of them. They like to vent. But then we want to move them into positive territory. We tell them they are worthwhile. They have a great deal to offer and they need to get started right away. And, in addition, practical logistics. Career Resources is a non-profit, consortium of government agencies. They have counselors, they provide Internet computers, resume packages, free paper, free packages as well as the information resources and you can talk to counselors on an on-going basis and it's all supplied free so this is your home away from home. This is your office. They come to us for support and venting buy you get your work done at Career Resources.